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Ghost images

Discussion in 'Logitech Revue' started by pgoelz, Sep 19, 2011.

  1. pgoelz

    pgoelz New Member

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    Anyone else notice ghost images when watching TV from the STB? They are generally only noticeable in the black on each side of 4:3 content in a 16:9 TV. I think it is from previous video from the Revue but I have not conclusively proven the source. Sometimes switching the TV to another input and back removes them and sometimes it takes switching the Revue to a function that turns off the video overlay and then back to TV mode.

    Just when I was deciding to keep the Revue (still looking for something it does well) I discover another flaw. Lets hope the update arrives before my 30 day return privilege expires ;)

    Paul
     
  2. eferz

    eferz Well-Known Member

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    Nope. I can confirm with both a Logitech Revue and 24" Sony Internet TV that those symptoms aren't a common occurrence with Google TV. This sounds more like LCD image ghosting which occurs on older, cheaper televisions. The problem is the response time of the crystals to go from an active color to black. Another work around is to just make the set-top box fill the screen of the SD channels by adjusting the aspect ratio or zooming the picture.
     
  3. pgoelz

    pgoelz New Member

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    Yeah, that's the first thing I thought of too.... ghosting in the LCD display itself. But sometimes when I switch from HDMI to PC input on the TV (with the PC off so the screen is black), the ghost is gone on the black screen of the PC input but returns when I switch back to HDMI. That would seem to rule out the display itself and indicate that it is actually present in the video being presented at the HDMI input.

    Further, we have had this TV for a couple years and NEVER seen any ghost images when switching from 16:9 to 4:3 programming. This only began after adding the Revue.

    I am still observing to see if I can detect any ghost imaging in the actual video.

    The two possibilities I can think of at present are either the Revue is causing it due to an issue in the overlay algorithm or something the Revue is doing during passthrough is not refreshing the video in unchanging black areas and this has something to do with the way the decompression engine in the TV.

    Changing how 4:3 video is displayed is not an option for me.... I hate messing with aspect ratios and/or zooming. A possible workaround might be to adjust the contrast/brightness to take the "black" on each side of 4:3 down to actual black instead of being very slightly above black (and therefore making the ghosts more visible).

    Bottom line is that I am pretty sure this is an artifact from having the Revue in the circuit. Depending on how you have your TV adjusted, it might not be visible. And it is not always there, which makes it that much more elusive. Hope it gets fixed soon.

    Paul
     
  4. sparkyscott21

    sparkyscott21 Moderator Staff Member

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    On my Revue with a 2 year old Samsung, is just fine..
     
  5. pgoelz

    pgoelz New Member

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    I'm still trying to identify the contributing circumstances but it seems to be related to the particular Revue "background" image (they seem to change periodically). At present, the background on mine is a plain sunburst pattern centered on the upper left corner of the Revue screen. This does not seem to produce a noticeable ghost image.

    Paul
     
  6. eferz

    eferz Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking about the default Google TV Home Screen; this one?

    [​IMG]

    The Google TV Home screen is also an overlay which allows you to see the video signal behind it through transparency.
     
  7. pgoelz

    pgoelz New Member

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    Yes, that is the background for my home screen too at present. There seem to be other backgrounds that are more complex and it appears to be a "ghost" from the more complex backgrounds that I can detect in the very dark gray sidebars during 4:3 video from the STB (Tivo, in my case) when that more complex background is being used by the Revue.

    The only way I can see that this could be a TV issue would be if the TV did not clear out the remnants of the Revue video in the black (ie, featureless and unchanging) sidebars when abruptly switching to 4:3 video from my STB.... like if the decompression cache wasn't cleared or something. But if that were the case, switching to another 16:9 source and back would clear it and it doesn't always.

    It didn't occur to me to take photographs, but I'll do that the next time I notice it.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
  8. eferz

    eferz Well-Known Member

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    The Home screen is about as complicated as it gets for Google TV overlays, and its "background image" doesn't change. Ever. The only other overlays are the Seach/Navigation bar which pops up at the top and the GTV Settings menu which takes up most of the right-hand side of the screen.

    Btw, did you properly set the overscan wizard? It's the one that makes you push the blue frame outside of the viewable area.
     
  9. pgoelz

    pgoelz New Member

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    Then I have a bit of a mystery because the background image for the home screen DID change. I just assumed it was normal. Is there perhaps an interaction with the "screen saver"? I'll have to set the screen saver to a low value and see A) what is it and B) does it set up a scenario that results in the ghost image.

    The first ghost we observed several days ago was circular and centered on the center of the screen. It was only observable in the dark sidebars on 4:3 content from the Tivo. It consisted of a slightly lighter arc that would have formed a circle except that (projected) it extended above and below the screen.

    Yes, I have the overlay overscan set correctly.

    Again, I am almost positive that the home screen background image DID change, so I need to observe it and see if I can catch it changing again and see if that is related to the ghost. With the current "sunburst" image, there is no ghost image that I can detect.

    Paul
     
  10. revue5

    revue5 Well-Known Member

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    Did you try a factory-reset?

    Good Luck!
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2011
  11. eferz

    eferz Well-Known Member

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    The "screensaver" for the Logitech Revue is an opaque black screen with a "Logitech Revue with Google TV" image which randomizes location. This is what it looks like.

    [​IMG]

    I did fail to enumerate one of the Google TV overlay screens. It is the task/window manager that you get while you hold down the GTV Home button or press [Alt]+[Tab]. However, that's the only other screen that's a part of video overlay which has the transparency to watch the video behind it. Other than that these images are static and don't change.

    By the way, what is the make and model of your television?
     
  12. jlong

    jlong New Member

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    I see ghosting when watching my satellite, dish VIP622 connected to the revue. It's noticeable when the screen goes black after being bright. It's not a problem with the TV because when the vip622 is connected directly to the HDMI of the TV ghosting doesn't occur. It's even noticeable in areas that are bright but not nearly as noticeable when a bright area goes dark. I have a Samsung ln52a630.

    I do not see any ghosting when watching a movie using the epix app.
     
  13. pgoelz

    pgoelz New Member

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    I set the screen saver to 10 minutes and waited for it this morning. I activated correctly and was the Logitech image as stated above. It bore no resemblance to the ghost images I have seen.... which have not returned for more than 24 hours now.

    Paul
     
  14. eferz

    eferz Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure those images were from the Logitech Revue and not either your Tivo or Television? Btw, which model Tivo and television do you have, again?
     
  15. pgoelz

    pgoelz New Member

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    No I am not 100% sure the ghost is from the Revue. But I have never seen ghosts in 4:3 sidebars in the 2 years I have had both the Samsung 46B550K1F TV and the TivoHD (got them both at about the same time). They have always been connected via HDMI and with the same cable I am using from TV to Revue. The only change is the Revue is now in the mix. Evidence points to the Revue, since it has overlay capabilities and the parts of the ghost I could see resembled the Revue background image that was displayed by the Revue at the time.

    There was at least one time where I switched the TV from the HDMI input to the VGA PC input and then back to HDMI and the ghost was still there. That seems to eliminate the TV but not the Tivo. But there was another time when I switched the Revue to the media player (no background image) and back to the home screen and the ghost vanished. That would seem to eliminate the Tivo. Unless there is some sort of bidirectional communication on the HDMI interface that can cause any connected device to react in some way.

    I am still puzzled by the background image behind the home screen at the time the ghost was visible.... it was definitely NOT the simple sunburst that seems to be the "normal" background for the home menu. But it could possibly have been a corruption of that sunburst since it seemed to consist of various arcs and circles. I thought it was just an abstract image. Since then, it has not recurred. I have also rebooted the Revue a couple times (doing other configurations) in the interim. Maybe that reset something. I also note that the ghost was subtle enough that it is possible it is always there, just not readily observable unless the background image is more complex than the simple sunburst. ??

    Again, I'll photograph it if it ever does it again.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  16. eferz

    eferz Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that all the Google TV overlays are transparent allowing you to see whatever video is being displayed through the HDMI input. This includes GTV Home, GTV Settings, GTV Task Manager, and GTV Search/Navigation Bar.

    Did the background image kind of look like this? But with one of the four Google TV's transparent screens over it?

    [​IMG]

     
  17. pgoelz

    pgoelz New Member

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    Yes, I am aware that the Revue overlays are transparent. Maybe I am not making myself clear.... the ghosts I am talking about are NOT under the Revue screen and/or during times when the Revue is actively producing content in overlay mode. They are visible (sometimes) on either side of 4:3 content in TV only mode..... where the Revue is not supposed to be contributing anything.

    IOW, I hit the TV button on the Revue keyboard and I should be seeing only the Tivo on the TV. But sometimes I see the ghost image on either side of 4:3 content in the sidebars that should be featureless.

    Paul
     
  18. eferz

    eferz Well-Known Member

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    No, you're made yourself perfectly completely clear about the symptoms. Just not where the spooky image came from. I just wonder where these ghosts are coming from so that I can try to reproduce it. As far as I can tell on both my Logitech Revue and 24" Sony Internet TV, I am unable to reproduce the same symptoms.

    At this point, I'm starting to wonder if there are poltergeist in your home, and would recommend not letting your children near the television screen.
     
  19. jlong

    jlong New Member

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    Here is a pic of what I'm seeing. Just before a commercial.
     

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  20. pgoelz

    pgoelz New Member

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    I seriously stretched the levels in that image to reveal the "ghost" image:

    $2011-09-21_00-09-33_373(edited).jpg

    Is that an optical reflection of you taking the photo, or the actual ghost you saw? In your case, that appears to be a remnant of program material. In my case, it seemed to be a remnant of the home screen, or more likely the home screen background (since I did not see any evidence of program icons in the portion of the ghost that I could see on either side of 4:3 video).

    Paul
     

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